A little conversation about subtraction.

In 2006, during the last summer UG spent in Switzerland, Dr Lynn and Mahesh talked about UG one August afternoon while the usual suspects were sitting around Apartment #609 on a rare day when there were no rides underway.
UG was sitting there listening from his usual perch on the orange colored reclining chair by the telephone in the central spot of the living room. Mahesh was lying on the floor between UG’s chair and Larry’s chair, operating his cell phones and generally hanging out at UG’s feet. Dr Lynn was seated opposite UG, talking to Mahesh in front of UG, not to draw UG into the conversation, but to talk about what he noticed about UG when he first met him.
A few other people were hanging around the room that day as well. Dr Lynn met UG in India in 1971, Mahesh met him a few years later in Mumbai. The kind of conversation that went on was something of a rare occurrence since UG would cut off most conversations with his own line of talking. This may have been allowed because they were talking about how he functioned, and how he affected them. When they started talking, Mahesh was lounging on the floor by the side of UG’s chair, between he and the reverend. As the conversation went on, UG sat eating ice, making some background comments, then getting up in the middle of it to throw out.
It started with Paul talking about his first encounter with UG.

D.L. –“He didn’t look like a man who had four kids and was fifty years old. I mean he looked like he was my age, he looked like this fresh thing. I was twenty seven, twenty eight. “
Mahesh- “Something new. “
UG- (absently commenting as he stirred some ice in his cup.) – “Yahhh! Yahh!”
Julie- “So he was describing how everything was functioning?”
Mahesh- (pushing the discussion into a more political direction..)- “But yesterday he was saying with the same feeling that the holy man and the man who is digging trenches must get exactly the same kind of salary…”
UG- (wanting to hear this line again) – “What? “
Mahesh- “You were attacking, saying the holy man…”
PL- (bringing the conversation back to his initial encounter), “He was still saying, he was not saying this is anything different, this is the same, there is nothing new here, there is nothing added.”
Mahesh (repeating the line dramatically, looking around)- “Nothing added.”
Paul (continuing..) “Nothing added, Like I remember the first time I met UG twenty minutes later he brings me into his room where he’s staying, just to show me I guess, that there’s nothing unique here, there are no secrets… you know? So there’s nothing added, that you can project out onto.”
Mahesh (again, repeating for emphasis), – “Nothing added!”
PL- “Nothing added, so you couldn’t say like. ‘Here’s an enlightened man, here’s something’, it’s not like he got anything, so there’s nothing added.”
Mahesh (giving a knowing growl from the floor), “Uuuuuuhhhh!”
UG – (with a wave of his spoon, mid mouthful of some cold water), “Don’t publish a revised biography! “
There was some laughter and Mahesh sat up and looking around, and up at the ceiling said,
Mahesh, – “But there is a difference…”
UG- (immediately disagreeing). “No!”
Mahesh continued, – “When I leave, I always go back with something added. “
UG (interjecting), “He must add that…”
Mahesh – “I cannot say I leave without something added. “
PL (clarifying his point in another way) , – “There’s the problem, the mind always wants to clarify by saying there is something added. “
Mahesh (countering for effect), – “Yeah, but you do get, because it shows! It shows in the bank balance! “
UG (again throwing a little wrench into the conversation), “Heh! No! Taken away! (money from the bank).”
Now Mahesh, got up, warming to the discussion,
Mahesh- “It does add!”
PL – “It does add? What adds?”
Mahesh- (coming forward, now directing, taking center stage), “It adds to your power base!”
PL- “What does?”
Mahesh- “You go back and it changes your power base, it enlarges it.”
PL- “What does? I mean, it adds if you don’t add, if you don’t add too much…”
Now UG was in the background, talking about the bank balance of course, but not in a way that interfered with the conversation between the two. They continued, ignoring him for the time being,
PL – “There is a way that you can measure that in the world that you and me live in, not by his reference, …”
Here he indicated UG behind him…
Mahesh- “Right right,…”
Paul made his, as Mahesh moved up and stood in front of him, while in the background UG commented to someone els that they were talking about him…
PL – “It adds in the way that a subtle belief that you had isn’t limiting you. So it adds that way, but that’s a subtraction, in that sense, you’ve lost that belief.”
As Lynn said this, UG went behind Mahesh, heading to the kitchen or the bathroom to throw out or eat something. Paul commented,
PL – “Something just left the room.”
Mahesh (concurring), “Something left the room.”
PL – “Just ran out of the room.”
Laughter after which Dan, a lawyer who had been sitting by quietly, commented,
D, _”There is such a thing as addition by subtraction too. If you remove things, it allows other things to come in.”
Mahesh –“Maybe that’s the better way to put it… “
PL (wanting to make a distinction), “The danger is making anything about talking to this guy, (UG), an addition (like) saying ‘oh he’s got this that I don’t have.’ There you’ve just added something, that’s an addition,”
Mahesh stood and pondered,
Mahesh – “Hmm…”

Paul went on to say that addition in the case of a person like UG would mean that he would be sitting in a ashram, run by family, (a reference to Ramana Maharshi), something he’d gone out of his way over the years, to avoid with all the means at his disposal.
PL – “And that would mean a division, created by that structure. I mean you could say everyone is sitting around in a room centered around him, but….”

And in that ‘but’ there was a world of difference between UG and every other “claimant” I can think of out there.

Advertisements
This entry was posted in Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

7 Responses to A little conversation about subtraction.

    • louisbrawley says:

      Matthew has been working on the film for over three years now. He’s interviewed most anyone who met UG who would agree to be interviewed and he’s very professional. I’m looking forward to the final product. I think Matthew is the perfect person to make a documentary about UG because he’s totally fascinated and driven and filmmaking is his chosen field. He’s young and has a lot of energy which is what it takes. I am staggered by the amount of research he has done so far. With what he has he could open an entire archive on UG material, but it’s all for the film. He never even met UG, but that doesn’t seem to matter one iota. Amazing really.

      • Bruce says:

        LB – You know where, when, how it be released? Indie-style, Internet, hollywood, bollywood, …?

      • louisbrawley says:

        Hi Bruce,

        Yeah I have no idea how Matt will do it, but the kid has resources and is very bright. For sure we will hear as these things develop.

        ________________________________

  1. Jan says:

    I came across UG’s words in 1997 and after a few years I realised I had to take his words with a large grain of salt.
    Also, Richard helped in pointing out the fact that Uppaluri Gopal Krishnamurti was spiritual to the hilt and living the delusory state which is spiritual enlightenment/ undivided consciousness/ unity.
    The whole conversations can be found at the following lik:
    http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/selectedcorrespondence/sc-ug2.htm

    RESPONDENT: You have said that of all the peoples on this planet, UG comes the closest to what you report.
    RICHARD: Aye, his state of being, Sahaja Samadhi (aka ‘natural state’), is the furthest one can go, in spiritual enlightenment/ mystical awakenment, without becoming actually free of the human condition … to not put too fine a point on it: Sahaja Samadhi is generally held to be superior to Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

    RICHARD (to Co-Respondent): … you are not the first to be sucked into thinking that Mr. Uppaluri Krishnamurti is non-spiritual and, presumably, will not be the last.

    RESPONDENT: Just what qualifies Mr. Uppaluri Krishnamurti as ‘spiritual’?

    RICHARD: The 521,697 words at the following URL: http://www.well.com/user/jct/index.html

    RESPONDENT: Possibly you could define exactly what you mean by the word ‘spiritual’?

    RICHARD: There is a simple way to ascertain whether the word means the same, or similar, to you as it does to me … for example, would you say that Mr. Gaudapada (aka Mr. Gowdapada) qualifies as spiritual?

    Here is what the Encyclopaedia Britannica has, in part, to say:

    • ‘[Advaita] has its historical beginning with the 7th-century thinker Gaudapada, author of the Mandukya-karika, a commentary in verse form on the late Mandukya Upanisad. Gaudapada builds further on the Mahayana Buddhist philosophy of Sunyava-da (‘Emptiness’). He argues that there is no duality; the mind, awake or dreaming, moves through maya (‘illusion’); and only nonduality (advaita) is the final truth. This truth is concealed by the ignorance of illusion. There is no becoming, either of a thing by itself or of a thing out of some other thing. There is ultimately no individual self or soul (jiva), only the atman (all-soul), in which individuals may be temporarily delineated just as the space in a jar delineates a part of main space: when the jar is broken, the individual space becomes once more part of the main space. (©1994-2002 Encyclopaedia Britannica).

    The reason why I provide that example is because of what Mr. Uppaluri Krishnamurti has to say about him:

    • ‘The saints are trying to tell you, so they are always in the field of duality; whereas the sage or seer, or whatever you want to call him, is in the state of undivided consciousness. He does not know that he is a free man, so for him there is no question of trying to free others. He is just there, he talks about it, and then he goes. Gaudapada had no disciples – he refused to teach anybody’. (from Part Four, ‘The Mystique Of Enlightenment’; Second Edition; Published by: Akshaya Publications, Bangalore, INDIA. 1992: (www.well.com/user/jct/moetitle.htm).

    And:

    • ‘You must challenge what I am saying without the help of your so-called authorities. You just don’t have the guts to do that because you are relying upon the Gita, not upon yourself. That is why you will never be able to do it. If you have that courage, you are the only person who can falsify what I am saying. A great sage like Gowdapada can do it, but he is not here. You are merely repeating what Gowdapada and others have said. It is a worthless statement as far as you are concerned. If there were a living Gowdapada sitting here, he would be able to blast what I am saying, but not you’. (from Chapter Four, ‘Mind Is A Myth’; Published by: Dinesh Publications, Goa, 403 101 INDIA. 1988: http://www.well.com/user/jct/cover.html).

    RESPONDENT: Just what qualifies Mr. Uppaluri Krishnamurti as ‘spiritual’?

    RICHARD: The 521,697 words at the following URL: http://www.well.com/user/jct/index.html.

    RESPONDENT: Yes, I have read many of those words – yet am still not convinced that UG is clearly ‘spiritual’. He certainly does have affinities with ‘spiritual’ teachings – non-duality, the ‘search’ is the problem, ‘thought’ is your enemy, etc. Yet it is not clear at all that he believes in an individual soul or universal soul in any sense whatsoever. So – on the one hand he definitely has affinities with some teachings of ‘spiritualists’ – yet it isn’t clear there is any ‘spirit’ in or behind it all.

    RICHARD: Are you familiar with the term ‘Sahaja Samadhi’ (in Sanskrit ‘together-born’ and ‘placed-together’) which is used to designate the natural state of non-duality/ union?

    If so, the following will be of interest:

    • Mr. Uppaluri Krishnamurti: ‘For hours and hours I can sit here and watch the clock pendulum moving there – I can’t be bored – I really don’t know what it is. The pendulum is moving there – the whole of my being is that movement. For hours and hours I can sit here and look at it. You are not interested in that thing; you are interested in something else, some meditation. This individual is always in a state of meditation. ‘Where is that movement?’ I am wondering – that is the meditation that is going on. Not that I am wondering in the usual sense of the word; this individual remains in a state of wonder for the rest of his life. ‘Outside’ and ‘inside’ are created by thought. When there is no movement of thought, you don’t know whether it is inside or outside. This is just like a mirror. This is a live mirror reflecting things exactly as they are. There is nobody here: I don’t see anything; the whole of my body is reflecting things exactly the way they are out there.
    The recognising and naming mechanism is in the background except when there is a need for it. This absence of the movement of thought which recognises and names things is the state of samadhi, sahaja (natural) samadhi. You imagine that samadhi is something he goes into and comes out of. Not at all; he’s always there. Whether the eyes of such a man are open or closed, he does not know what he is looking at.
    A person who has come into such a state of samadhi is like a madman and a child rolled into one. Madcaps function in exactly the same way – the thoughts are disconnected, disjointed things, and so the actions are also disconnected, the feelings are also disconnected. But their thoughts are accompanied by hallucinations, mental images, seeing something that isn’t there – that’s the only difference. This state is always a state of wonder; he doesn’t know what he is looking at, he doesn’t know what he is smelling, and yet his senses are working at their peak capacities, extraordinarily sensitive, taking in everything. (from Part Four, ‘The Mystique Of Enlightenment’; Second Edition; Published by: Akshaya Publications, Bangalore, INDIA. 1992: (www.well.com/user/jct/moetitle.htm).

    RESPONDENT: And that little paragraph defines him as spiritual?

    RICHARD: I did preface it with ‘are you familiar with the term ‘Sahaja Samadhi’’ … for those who are then Mr. Uppaluri Krishnamurti’s report/ description speaks for itself.

    RESPONDENT: You’ll have to explain that one.

    RICHARD: To an eastern ear the term ‘sahaja samadhi’ conveys something different from what the translation ‘natural state’ can convey to the western ear (which can create the impression that Mr. Uppaluri Krishnamurti is non-spiritual) as what is conveyed is deeply embedded in the spiritual heritage of India.

    In other words, as no materialist in India would ever say they have come into a state of sahaja samadhi (just as no materialist in the west would say ‘I am God’) it is implicit in such a statement that the stater is spiritual to the hilt.

    To not put too fine a point on it: sahaja samadhi is generally held to be superior to nirvikalpa samadhi.

    RESPONDENT: So because he uses certain words and phrases that are part of his culture, like meditation, sahaja samadhi, that makes him spiritual?

    RICHARD: I presume you are referring to this section of the (now snipped) passage:

    • ‘The pendulum is moving there – the whole of my being is that movement. For hours and hours I can sit here and look at it. You are not interested in that thing; you are interested in something else, some meditation. This individual is always in a state of meditation. ‘Where is that movement?’ I am wondering – that is the meditation that is going on’. [endquote].

    And this section:

    • ‘There is nobody here: I don’t see anything; the whole of my body is reflecting things exactly the way they are out there. The recognising and naming mechanism is in the background except when there is a need for it. This absence of the movement of thought which recognises and names things is the state of samadhi, sahaja (natural) samadhi. You imagine that samadhi is something he goes into and comes out of. Not at all; he’s always there. Whether the eyes of such a man are open or closed, he does not know what he is looking at. A person who has come into such a state of samadhi is like a madman and a child rolled into one’. [endquote].

    As no materialist in India would ever say they are always in a state of meditation (just as no materialist in the west would ever say they are always in a state of grace) and, as no materialist in India would ever say they have come into the state of sahaja samadhi (just as no materialist in the west would ever say ‘I am God’), it is implicit in such statements that Mr. Uppaluri Krishnamurti is spiritual to the hilt.

  2. Bruce says:

    I think UG would like this guy . http://www.gq.com/blogs/the-feed/2013/02/how-the-shit-my-dad-says-dad-celebrates-valentines-day.html?mbid=social_twitter_gqmagazine

    “You know why human beings are here on earth? To fuck each other, make babies, then take care of those babies just long enough so that those babies are able to grow up and fuck each other and make more babies. That’s it. That’s our purpose in life. And if you don’t believe me, take a good look at yourself in the mirror right after you’re done jerking off next time and try to come up with a good reason as to why in the hell you just spent fifteen minutes doing that.”

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s